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Naughty List Resuts - Final Decisions PLEASE READ THE FIRST POST BEFORE VOTING

Top Ten including the District of Columbia as a State
- 2 (1.1%)
Top Ten dropping DC from the list as it isn't a State
- 50 (27.6%)
Top 5 only
- 7 (3.9%)
Top Ten including the District of Columbia as a State with the next 5 on a "watch list"
- 17 (9.4%)
Top Ten including excluding DC with the next 5 on a "watch list"
- 105 (58%)

Total Members Voted: 179

Voting closed: June 29, 2013, 05:14:35 PM


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Author Topic: Naughty List Resuts - Final Decisions PLEASE READ THE FIRST POST BEFORE VOTING  (Read 26794 times)

ModernSurvival

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Actually please read the opinions of other members as well but please do consider the following at a minimum before voting on this poll.

I have these attached as both a PDF and Excel File. 

The original poll is here http://walkingtofreedom.com/forum/index.php?topic=2.0

The top 11 are, no surprises here

California                   592   12.10%
New York                   585   11.90%
Illinois                   532   10.80%
New Jersey           490   10.00%
Massachusetts           449   9.10%
Washington, DC   363   7.40%
Connecticut           351   7.20%
Hawaii                   321   6.50%
Maryland                   270   5.50%
Colorado                   254   5.20%
Rhode Island        139   2.80%

I really want to drop DC from the list, there are many reasons but the top ones are

1.  DC isn't a state, it just isn't.
2.  DC is worked in by a lot of people but the population of residents is very low and made up almost 100% of elected officials and federal employees, we don't want them moving to our states anyway.
3.  Those that choose to live in DC really do choose to do so, Maryland and Virginia are so close, it is always a choice.

It just doesn't seem strategic, and friends there are not 51 stars on the flag are there?

You will also notice that there is no DC in similar projects like this one http://freedominthe50states.org/

4.  If we go with the top 10 and drop DC Rhode Island gets on the list, and Frankly I think they belong.

The next 5 on the list are

Delaware           84   1.70%
Washington   77   1.60%
Oregon        55   1.10%
Pennsylvania   35   0.70%
Ohio            30   0.60%

Note the rapid fall off down to 1 percent and below. 

My gut for the naughty list is


California                   592   12.10%
New York                   585   11.90%
Illinois                   532   10.80%
New Jersey           490   10.00%
Massachusetts           449   9.10%
Connecticut           351   7.20%
Hawaii                   321   6.50%
Maryland                   270   5.50%
Colorado                   254   5.20%
Rhode Island        139   2.80%

That is 10, which means the worst performing 20% of the states in the union.  What I mean is 10 is 20% of 50.  So 10 is a nice round number, 20% is a nice round number and the top 5 all are definitely the worst offenders.

I am thinking of a "watch list" states that could easily find themselves on the list next time around.  I actually have a lot of hope that Colorado will possibly end up off the list in 2014 if they get that stupid law repealed and that would be a great WTF story. 

I would say the watch list should be the next 5 on the list, they would be

Michigan
Delaware
Washington
Oregon
Pennsylvania


On that note I would like a volunteer to put the results into a really good looking WTF Branded PDF, once we have this nailed I want to do a press release.

So I have made my case for 10 at the bottom, dropping the District of Criminals and a 5 state "watch list".  But will defer to the group on the final decision.  With this in mind please discuss and vote for your chosen option above.  You can only vote for one but you can change your vote.

I am not making everyone over 5% an option because it would be the exact same as the top ten worst.  I will add other options if you guys suggest them.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 05:33:17 PM by ModernSurvival »
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PeterK

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Jack, you may want to edit, because Michigan's missing in "The next 5" section. Had to go look at the data to see where it came from later.
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coctailer

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Dump DC, and go with the bottom 10/5%.

At first I thought the "watch list" would be a good thing, but I think it may end up muddling the issue. These states may end up moving TOWARD liberty, and not away from it.
Michigan has been changing laws in favor of liberty.

I think if they deserve to be on the naughty list then thats it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 03:21:31 PM by coctailer »
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burbot

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I like the top 10, drop DC, and have a 5 state watch (I'd call it warning) list.

My reason for the watch list is because my family is thinking of moving.  We are not in a top 10 state, but I think my state is unfortunately headed the wrong direction.  I will be taking into account information on this website as we make our decision.  The top 10 is good, but most who are part of the TSP community already know that California, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, etc.  are not places we would want to live and therefore no practical use to us.  The top 10 is almost a mass political statement in a sense saying that a large part of our culture would never choose to  live in that type of situation.  Adding another 5 that may not be so obvious to some people would help alert them to what they may be choosing to get into or maybe want to get out of.  Example would be Michigan.  I would love to live in the U.P., but the Detroit/Auto collapse has an effect on the state as a whole.  Great area in a bad State.  Every state has their "good places" and if that's all you know you may choose to live there.  Eventually you may realize that even though your area has great people, great land, and is fairly independent having a metropolis with voting power could destroy where you live in a heartbeat "for the good of the State".  The watch list would include these not so obvious places that may not be what they appear.  I also think that 15 is still not too many where it becomes a my state is better than yours ranking system.  15 is: 5-you get what you deserve, 5-how did you not see it coming, and 5-you should have known better States to live in.  Looking forward to the individual State discussions.   
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Kristi

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I think there is a clear break between Colorado and Rhode Island for the top 10 (i.e., 5.2% vs 2.8%).  This would require including DC, but the percentage break is a clear message from the people who voted.  It would follow that the watch list should be the next five, which all received votes greater than 1%.  It seems unreasonable for a state like PA or OH to be on a watch list with less than 1% of the vote. 

Another option is to select the top nine and omit DC, and rename it the "Naughty Nine."
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TheLight

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If DC isn't a state, and you are discounting it now because of that fact, why was it on the initial polling list? The initial vote would have been different if DC was not on the list. Perhaps Rhode Island would have been higher up on the list, or perhaps another state would have been. This is changing your criteria mid-experiment. It calls into question the integrity of the vote. Not a good plan, imho.
Note, I doubt the removal of DC from the initial vote would have affected the numbers much, but still, it is a concern. The message is clear that DC was thought of highly enough that it should be on the list. I don't think it should be changed now. Next year we can do the poll again and have it only be states. Otherwise let's do the vote over again now without DC.
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Anomaly99

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I do not think the District of Columbia should be included.  It is too easy to leave DC.  Move 10 miles in any direction and you are out.  The vast majority of people living in DC do so by choice.  If the purpose is to help fellow liberty minded people to leave the naughty list states, listing DC will help few if any.
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ArtWinn50

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I agree that DC should not be included for the prevously stated reasons. Also I don't feel the need for a "watch list" at this time although it may be appropriate at a later date. 8)
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CTyler7

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I understand that many people see D.C. as worthy of being included. However, it's just not a state and it's not worth opening the whole US territories can of worms at this time.

I think the watch list serves as an important buffer zone which makes it easier to track the improvement (or fall) of each state.

Example: The citizens of Idaho suddenly decide that they hate their freedoms so they steal Nancy Pelosi from CA and Michael Bloomberg from NY in the dead of night and install them as Governor and Lieutenant Governor. The next time we take a poll, we see ID move from the bottom spot to the watch list. This puts people in Idaho on alert and gets them ready to stay and restore their state or consider a walk to freedom.

Now suppose that Idaho really loses it and they declare Nancy and Michael "King and Queen" of Idaho. Now ID overtakes CA in the next poll which alerts the citizens that stayed to try to win back the state to initiate their walk to freedom.
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thequietman

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Here is a thought as to additional information that should either be taken into account or just included somewhere in the results. And that is a percentage of people who voted for the state vs the total population of the state.

Just as an example, there are 592 votes for California and 139 for Rode Island, which puts Rode Island all the way at the bottom of the top 10. However, population of Rode Island is 1.05 million and population of California is 38.04 million. Population of PA is 12.76 million but it only got 35 votes. (Ok, so I live in PA and am biased  ;))

This probably will not affect the top 10 list that much, but it may help reorder it or at least give it better perspective. I mean, with population of California 38 times larger than Rode Island, it should've gotten over 5000 votes to be as bad as RI.
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dk1138

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(edited)
I like the top 10, drop DC, and have a 5 state watch (I'd call it warning) list.

My reason for the watch list is because my family is thinking of moving.  We are not in a top 10 state, but I think my state is unfortunately headed the wrong direction.  ...
...  The top 10 is almost a mass political statement in a sense saying that a large part of our culture would never choose to  live in that type of situation.  Adding another 5 that may not be so obvious to some people would help alert them to what they may be choosing to get into or maybe want to get out of.  ...
... Eventually you may realize that even though your area has great people, great land, and is fairly independent having a metropolis with voting power could destroy where you live in a heartbeat "for the good of the State".  ....
....I also think that 15 is still not too many where it becomes a my state is better than yours ranking system.  ....

I read this post several times, initially disagreed, but really think the OP is probably right in terms of what to do. 

To wit: There is a bit of red-state "my state is better than yours" in this kind of comparison.  I can't figure out from the voting why some of the conformist over-regulated midwestern states didn't make it in, but more of the western states did.  E.g. in terms of firearms freedom, WA and OR were way ahead of IA and WI (I know both regions).  Maybe it's the perception that dumb consumer laws generate.  CO obviously earned its recent notoriety.  Plus water-harvesting laws, gosh. 

Anyhow, the OP is very right about large population bases driving the politics and the risk this creates. 

Large cities are, however, where a lot of the higher-end jobs are available, and that will be the conundrum for people without very portable careers who aren't yet financially resilient with an alternative income stream. 

As long as discussion stays practical, the watch list should be helpful for specific practical information. 
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MN2TX

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(edited)
I like the top 10, drop DC, and have a 5 state watch (I'd call it warning) list.

My reason for the watch list is because my family is thinking of moving.  We are not in a top 10 state, but I think my state is unfortunately headed the wrong direction.  ...
...  The top 10 is almost a mass political statement in a sense saying that a large part of our culture would never choose to  live in that type of situation.  Adding another 5 that may not be so obvious to some people would help alert them to what they may be choosing to get into or maybe want to get out of.  ...
... Eventually you may realize that even though your area has great people, great land, and is fairly independent having a metropolis with voting power could destroy where you live in a heartbeat "for the good of the State".  ....
....I also think that 15 is still not too many where it becomes a my state is better than yours ranking system.  ....

I read this post several times, initially disagreed, but really think the OP is probably right in terms of what to do. 

To wit: There is a bit of red-state "my state is better than yours" in this kind of comparison.  I can't figure out from the voting why some of the conformist over-regulated midwestern states didn't make it in, but more of the western states did.  E.g. in terms of firearms freedom, WA and OR were way ahead of IA and WI (I know both regions).  Maybe it's the perception that dumb consumer laws generate.  CO obviously earned its recent notoriety.  Plus water-harvesting laws, gosh. 

Anyhow, the OP is very right about large population bases driving the politics and the risk this creates. 

Large cities are, however, where a lot of the higher-end jobs are available, and that will be the conundrum for people without very portable careers who aren't yet financially resilient with an alternative income stream. 

As long as discussion stays practical, the watch list should be helpful for specific practical information.

WI has made huge headway the last 4 years. I can legally carry from MN to WI. Plus the whole union thing they won. WI is heading the right direction.
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We are moving from Minnesota to Texas. Looking in the Conroe\Montgomery\Woodlands area. We have made 1 trip hitting Dallas, Huston

old goat

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I would like to see a form or spread sheet with say 10 questions pertaining to liberty. All 50 states would be included, that way you could look it over and compare one state to another. Here in minnesota we are known as the welfare state for all the social programs available, a real liberals paradise (HIGH TAXES)! Minnesota didn't make the list but that doesn't mean it shouldn't, I can't help but wonder how many other states are in this same situation.
               After all 50% of all doctors graduated in the bottom half of there class
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dk1138

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...E.g. in terms of firearms freedom, WA and OR were way ahead of IA and WI (I know both regions).  Maybe it's the perception that dumb consumer laws generate.  CO obviously earned its recent notoriety.  Plus water-harvesting laws, gosh. 
...

WI has made huge headway the last 4 years. I can legally carry from MN to WI. Plus the whole union thing they won. WI is heading the right direction.

That's a valid set of points.  I had not thought of the union thing, aslso.  It's been a few years since I lived in SE MN.  I think WI changed a couple yrs after I left re: concealed carry. 
DK
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dk1138

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I would like to see a form or spread sheet with say 10 questions pertaining to liberty. All 50 states would be included, that way you could look it over and compare one state to another. Here in minnesota we are known as the welfare state for all the social programs available, a real liberals paradise (HIGH TAXES)! Minnesota didn't make the list but that doesn't mean it shouldn't, I can't help but wonder how many other states are in this same situation.
               After all 50% of all doctors graduated in the bottom half of there class

Totally agree.  A qualitative survey would be awesome.  'Cause, after all, some things mean more to some people than others.  E.g. firearms freedom, business regulation, etc.  One could break it down by themes: Firearms, Personal Liberty, Tax Structure, Corruption/Political Process, Business Regulation, etc.  Could do it either as a "yes/no" like the detailed firearms freedom assessment Jack posted a while ago (was that from the Guardian?) or the Brady people do, or as an opinion-type thing. 

I lived in MN for many years.  It is a deeply socialist state, just lucky to be one of the better run ones (ie. things actually worked most of the time).  Also seemed very conformist and deferential to any authority; there was almost *zero* concern around me about the Patriot Act when it first came out.  (disclaimer: I realize this last paragraph is opinion; I mean no offense to any individual)

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